A Conversation About… Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People, Climate Change and Covid 19 – Part 4

Disclaimer: The following transcript has been autogenerated and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies resulting from the automated transcription process.

Host (00:01):

Hi there. Welcome to Mental Health Professionals Network podcast series MHPN’s aim is to promote and celebrate interdisciplinary, collaborative mental healthcare.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (00:17):

Welcome to the fourth and final episode of this four-part podcast. MHPN presents a conversation about, this is about the strength and priorities of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities to the impacts of climate change and the pandemic. This episode, as in previous episodes, will feature me, Pat Dudgeon in the conversation with Stewart Sutherland and Alan Rosen. In the previous episode, we discussed why Aboriginal communities are priority populations, the global achievements of Aboriginal communities during COVID-19, similar achievements of Aboriginal communities during droughts, fire floods, and so on, and what happened after the governments dropped the ball. In today’s episode, we will advocate for the need of public health solutions to the climate crisis that are co-design in partnership with Aboriginal people. I’ll be hosting this episode, and before we begin, let me introduce my fellow podcasters. Welcome Stewart.

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (01:28):

Thank you, Pat. I’m Stewart Sutherland. I’m a Wiradjuri man come to you from Wiradjuri Country, and I work for ANU as the Associate Dean for First Nations, and that’s on Ngunnawal Ngambri land. I’ve known Pat for many years, and Alan for a few years less. But our work intersects on social, emotion, wellbeing, and culture, and the way that we preface Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (01:52):

Thank you, Stewie. Over to you. Alan, please introduce yourself. 

Prof. Alan Rosen (01:56):

Okay. I’m Alan Rosen and I’m a community psychiatrist. Having been in the field a long time, been involved with both practise and research, in particularly community alternatives to institutional and hospital based care, but also looking after integrated services, but then also being involved with Aboriginal communities in remote Australia for about 37, 38 years.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (02:23):

Excellent, thank you. Without further ado, we’re just going to go into our conversation. Basically, I think that from our conversations to date, some big messages have come out, and I think the main one is that we have to offer public health and mental health measures for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, also for the mainstream population. I’ve been reflecting a little bit about my work in the area and the great change that I’ve seen happen in mainstream mental health. I think for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, we felt that there was a danger, if you like, in a mainstream mental health and diagnosis of approaches and theories because they did never considered culture. It was very individualistic and it didn’t look at what makes up a whole person. And social determinants, for instance, are big things. There are big influences on a person’s wellbeing. This has changed, now, we’ve seen the emergence of lived experience and the valuing of that. We’ve also seen the emergence of attention and importance given to social determinants. So these things have happened mainstream for Aboriginal people in particular. We’ve always been aware that’s our situation. Some of that is because of the history of colonisation. I know some of the listeners will say, oh, they’ve always blaming colonisation. But that had a very profound impact and continues on today. I think the systems are biased. Until recently, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people weren’t included. There’s been ongoing systemic exclusion, but also Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people need the space to develop their own approaches, their own models, their own knowledges on wellbeing and health. And we see all that happening now, which is, is absolutely fantastic. But from our own work, what are the important elements in our future of Indigenous mental health and wellbeing, but also Australian mental health and wellbeing?

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (04:34):

Look, I think you’re right. We’re talking about a social emotional wellbeing framework and moving away from just that very diagnostic medical viewpoint of what is health and what is mental health, which is a good way of giving power back to people, not just Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but people. And I think the other thing that is now becoming more evident, and we’ve discussed it before, is our connection to the environment. We’re not separate from the environment, we’re part of the environment. And as the environment’s becoming sicker, so are people, you know, you’ve just gotta look at the stress that people are under. You know, whether that’s through being in a city and not getting access to green spaces. We know green spaces affect people positively or being overworked where you’re stuck in little office for so long that you, you know, you just don’t know where your life starts or whether it’s, you know, getting out and seeing that our fauna and flora is changing dramatically, you know, whether it’s being burnt or whether it’s disappearing or whatever.

(05:38):

So the connection to the environment is really important. And these things are starting to come into the narrative within mental health and other health fields. You know, it wasn’t that long ago, and I think it was only DSM-4 was the first iteration of culture in it before that it wasn’t considered. So for people that don’t know, that’s the diagnostic manual that the American Psychology Association puts out that we all use to help our diagnosis. And then also your point about racism, I think the government in their policies actually has that they want to stamp out racism, institutional racism within our health sector. And whether people think that we’re banging on about that or not, it’s a reality that just needs to be voiced. And the more we voice it, the better we’ll be at addressing it. So that’s my 2 cents worth.

Prof. Alan Rosen (06:27):

I’ll add the third cent if I can. <Laugh> the issue about, you know, the, the culture was first discovered in DSM-4 or whatever is just an another illustration of what they found in the subcultures that developed, like in the southern states of the United States after slavery was abolished. And they tried to keep the idealised culture of southern white gentility going. And that was exposed in recent years in films that people celebrate, like “Gone With The Wind” that didn’t look at all the, the racist stereotypes that that was built on. So it really is important to be able to get organisations and institutions and services to move on from that. In terms of the diagnostic models of mental health, I think they have their place, I’ve gotta speak up for <laugh>, for psychiatry somewhere here in the series. And the Western evidence-based models have their place.

(07:28):

But the issue is that they for many years just stood alone in our firmament in mental health services, pushed by my profession and perhaps some of the others as well. We do need that evidence base, and we do need to know what works statistically and in terms of reliable outcomes. But we also need to work as Mason Durie in New Zealand says two ways. We’ve come across this before that trying to get a balance between western evidence-based guidance of what works and what’s worth doing to. Also looking at the cultural models and these things that have really been there for many years in traditional cultures. And that includes the essential roles of family, of culture, of language, of yarning, of listening to Elders, of in, you know, in, in the, in the situation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in terms of instructive dream time stories, in terms of language revival and passing those cultural tools onto the next generation.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (08:33):

Yes, I agree. I don’t think the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater, but I think that we need to make space for Indigenous knowledges and Indigenous approaches to emerge. And I’m seeing that happening now nationally. There’s wonderful approaches. The big picture approach that is social emotional wellbeing, which is about the person in context of their physical and mental self, but also in context of their connections with their family, their community, their country, their spirituality, and ancestors. So it’s a much more broad and holistic approach to wellbeing. However, the way we measure or gather evidence about those different approaches and different models might be the same as a western ones. So that probably is a challenge, but I think making space for Indigenous knowledges and traditions to come forward is an important first step. You know, I think the guy Dewey’s declaration certainly states that it states we want the best of both world, a western one, and also our cultural background as well. So that’s exciting developments. These approaches won’t just be for Aboriginal people, even though they’re absolutely essential. They could be used with other people as well. So when we’ve had conversations about social emotional wellbeing approaches, for instance, I know that some Indigenous psychologists have used that approach with non-Indigenous clients and it works very well. So obviously we do need to reclaim culture and knowledge, but there’ll be benefits to broader society as well.

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (10:20):

And I think in ways, sorry, Pat, I think in ways that we don’t yet know, we talked about fire stick burning and how that’s good for, the, all of Australia a little while ago, but or in the last episode. But we don’t know what will be good for everyone yet because we haven’t explored it yet. It’s been suppressed by many ways, including our own people. But, you know, it was suppressed by past policies. The more it gets reawakened and the more we can engage in it in culturally respectful way, the more answers we’ll get to a whole heap of these questions, I think. And the benefits will flow onto everyone, not just Mob.

Prof. Alan Rosen (10:54):

I would add some of the examples that we’ve touched on before, like the valuing and caring for and looking after nature and what that can bring to Aboriginal communities in terms of protecting country and wildlife species. But that brings it to everybody that we retain our, our wildlife species and the entire genetic pools and curating habitats, preventing extinctions of foreigner and flora, and creating, you know, land bridge wildlife overpasses for koalas, as we’ve talked about before, things like that. But also, what we learn about transgenerational resilience of people and how to protect country, waters and species and how to value elders rather than you know, talking as an <laugh> in, in the elder age group, that the idea of retired people as still having a role in families and in society and the connection with ancestors. Again, there’s a lot of things that, as you say, Stewart, there is a potential if that’s awakened in a wider society that could be a huge boon and benefit <laugh>.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (12:02):

So, this is about this session, this podcast is about hope and what can be done in the future. And one, one thing I’ll be asking of Alan and Stewart is to give us some examples of hope. You know, we know that with Aboriginal people, with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, self-determination is critical. And that goes in whatever we do, particularly us as our wellbeing clinicians, that even if we do have clinical diagnosis and solutions, we need to get in there and help our people. But we need to consult, they need to be in genuine partnerships with us. That self-determination that we spoke of as a response to COVID-19, which was so important, and we believe that that led to very low numbers of Aboriginal people becoming infected and dying of COVID. That was a, a great example of self-determination. So we need to ensure that that happens across the board.

(13:04):

And any group, I mean, obviously I’m concerned with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but if it was any other group that made up the diversity of Australia, we’d need to go and consult and listen to them as well. So it’s about respecting people’s humanity and their differences and nurturing those differences rather than dismissing them. But we wanted to talk about how do we change after this? We’ve had a pandemic, we’ve got climate change that’s happening and we’re our, are our points of hope that we can look to. And for me it was the rangers, there’s Indigenous rangers in Aboriginal communities and they’re really important. So, there are people who live in local areas and they support the project, support Indigenous people to combine their traditional knowledge with conservation training to protect and manage their Land, Sea, and Culture. So this is really important and I think it shouldn’t be dismissed that that’s an important project that already draws upon people’s local knowledge, but gives them a meaningful and powerful job to do.

(14:17):

Apparently there’s over 120 separate Indigenous rangers groups in Australia and there’s a policy, so do Google it, have a look at that and arrange a program. To me that’s a very important project that will help deal with climate change, that will help Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people themselves and value their knowledge and give them a place. And there’s many other different projects that we will talk more about directly, but what do we need to do? Because we do need to start attending proactively and not just wait for the next disaster. So what can we do to change the social determinants? What can we do to change poverty, poor housing, overheating, overcrowding, water and food insecurity, unemployment and other unmet needs. So, you know, how are we gonna change those social determinants? And I’d ask Alan and Stewie to answer this big question that Alan, you’ve written down here. <Laugh>. 

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (15:21):

Well, thank you. It’s a huge question and I’m, I, I know I don’t have all the answers <laugh> but look to pick up on couple, we’ve talked about Aboriginal health workers before and they’re a big part of our health services and they’re totally underutilised, but we don’t have discreet. And what I mean by that is, is targeted Aboriginal health education programs. There’s some minor ones so that, you know, in the TAFE sector, but in the tertiary sector, we don’t have broader informed, you’ve gotta go into a mainstream health practise such as psychology or medicine or nursing. We, but it would be good if we could cut, tailor something for our Aboriginal health workforce. I also think with regards to food security, food security means having enough to eat that is nutritionist. You can have enough to eat like chips and snacks, but that’s not nutrition and won’t sustain the body.

(16:16):

You know, we have many different traditional foods and food sourcing that is just under utilised in this country. And let’s just take kangaroo for example. You know, there’s a big dialogue happening about how much cattle affect the climate change with methane production. For those that you want to know what methane production is, that’s farting. Kangaroos are about 10% of that output that cattle put, yet there’s very little kangaroo meat utilised in this country. Poultry, all those, there’s many, many different protein sources we could then turn to instead of cattle. But you don’t see that being picked up in the, in the ways that I thought it would when, you know, we found out that cattle are a big pollutant. So, you know, we could look internally for those solutions within food security. We can look for historic global foods, like there’s different plants that are native everywhere. Like it’s, every continent has them. Bullrush is one. Bullrush is an edible plant, but big industry hasn’t picked it up in a way that allows people to utilise it so people then forget about it or food fads change. And then the other one that I think we could pick up really easily or maybe not pick up, but what we don’t know is how to address some of these psychological issues from climate change. We’ve named them, but have we really investigated how to work with them and move people through that? Well,

Prof. Alan Rosen (17:37):

I think the first thing is to recognise them as things. Cuz a lot of people will say, oh no, they’re not real syndromes. But I think for instance, solastalgia, the Glen Albrecht 2007 concept is getting wide currency throughout the world cuz people recognise it as real. And so there are more ways of managing it that people are, are looking at. And solastalgia remind the audience from the early sessions that it is about the loss of habitat, the loss of familiar environment and habitat and how you grieve that. And of course Aboriginal people know that so well from displacement and separation from family and country, et cetera. But the issue will increasingly affect everybody with accelerating climate change until we get to manage it properly. And part of that is being able to work in solidarity with others to control those changes in the environment.

(18:33):

So there’s some common social movement things that we can do to get people mobilised to do that and to attend to the issue about food security that you’ve just been mentioning, Stewart, but I’d also add the two ways, you know, that we were talking about two ways, two world way of working the seminal research by Chandler and Lalonde and, and Pat, I remember from our old days together, Pat, that you were the person who I think was most instrumental in making sure that Michael Chandler from Canada toured Australia and got the message out that there was wonderful research that that group had done in British Columbia to show if you wanted things to improve with Indigenous suicide, what you needed is not just to place some Aboriginal people in health services and in education, but you need to put them in every community agency, fire department police, you know, public service, the local council, whatever.

(19:34):

And not just gesturally, but in leadership positions there as well. And that, that had a big correlation with lowering the suicide rate, you know, alongside other interventions perhaps. But it, it ha it was a very strong correlation. So we need to learn that we have to place people and by all means we need to educate more Aboriginal professionals. But you raise a really important issue there, ab steward about having, having Aboriginal mental health workers. And there are too few programs in the tertiary sector. There are a few wonderful programs like the one that came out of Charles Sturt University in Wagga called the Djirruwang Program. And I’ve been a mentor with Tom Brideson and a mentoring program. He, he arranged for that program to keep people working in this degree program, which did work at making sure that people learnt Aboriginal young people and older people learnt both the essentials of Western type mental health, but also about social and emotional wellbeing and spiritual healing, et cetera, and how they work together. And they become very essential in mental health teams. But people want them in community services teams and everywhere cuz they have a degree, and they know how to work with people, with clientele and their families.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (20:57):

Just going back to what Stewie was talking about earlier about, there’s a lot of natural food that most Australians aren’t aware of. And I think that what I’m seeing is that a lot of Aboriginal people are becoming small business people to grow and package that food up. And certainly that’s the way forward. But I think that it’s something that maybe big industry doesn’t get involved in. And I dunno that I’m being a bit shortsighted here or misinformed, but I see big industry as being a major cause of climate change, I suppose. So that takes me to our next point is I think there’s space for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but also all are people to start cottage industries. And I think they’re probably a really good way forward. And I’m thinking of one of my cousins who has an ecotourism business. So she operates from our country and she’s got chalets and given that she’s in the Kimberley, it’s only open for six months of the year because of the weather.

(22:02):

And she’ll only take so many people because she doesn’t want it to impact on the country. So that’s working. It’s given her a great purpose. She loves it, she loves doing it. It is hard work, but it works for her and her family and it’s certainly a way forward. So, you know, there’s lots of other examples if we look around of people, particularly ecotourism, but we are seeing a revival of Indigenous businesses that are really successful that I hope probably stay as cottage industry. So the impact on the environment is limited, but they’re working in with the land. And I think that’s happening too in our farming communities. People are talking about doing organic farming. So I think that there’s some bright spots ahead for us, and certainly Aboriginal people will be engaging in that. 

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (22:55):

Yeah, I agree with you, Pat. I think big business, staying out of it is a, is certainly a plan.

Prof. Alan Rosen (22:59):

Well yeah, and I, I think there is a lot of hope in that, but successful little cottage industries become bigger industries. So it’s a, it’s a matter of being able to do that without having to play the corporate game that gets taken over by overseas interests, et cetera as well, isn’t it? There’s an economics to this as well that we need to attend to, to keep things home grown. 

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (23:19):

And then that feeds into the social determinants, doesn’t it? You know, once people become more affluent, then they can make different choices, you know, and, and more becomes available to them. So, you know, it is a good way of finding solutions for a number of problems that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people face while at the same time bringing Australia along for the ride.

Prof. Alan Rosen (23:40):

That reminds me, Stewart, that today is the day, the day we are recording, this is the 15th anniversary of the apology to Aboriginal people from the whole of the nation and also the reporting day for closing the gap. And that’s all about social determinants and cultural determinants as well as it’s been adapted and changed. So we, we could be talking about how we have to do something about disadvantage in terms of poverty and housing and education and all sorts of other disadvantages like infant mortality and literacy, et cetera. But the important thing there is that that is part of attending to climate change as well, because it’s gonna be those populations that are the priority populations we need to attend to and that we can also learn from and particularly Indigenous populations.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (24:31):

Thank you. Thank you, Alan. We didn’t actually mention one of the social determinants is racism, and I’ve deliberately not focused on that. I think that is being dealt with. I think it’s being exposed for what it is. I think that historical racism as well as now being addressed, I love how Victoria has its Truth-Telling Strategy. So I think that’s important. I know that our senator here, Dorinda Cox is wanting Western Australia to go through the same process. Now this is a big step forward. A lot of Aboriginal people, they probably say, well, we always knew the truth, but wider Australia has not, they don’t know all the stories. The good and the bad. Stewie mentioned about Jacky Jacky and his colleague who rescued people in a flood which is not known. You know, there’s unsung heroes, but there’s also the truth of what happened, the terrible truth, if you like, of what happened for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

(25:33):

And so I’m seeing a process of that becoming accepted. I know when we did our first working together book back in 2010 I think it was that isn’t that long ago. We used the words colonisation in that book. And we talked about British invasion. And I know that the government who had commissioned that book at that time, they were quite nervous about us using the term. They had to go through this big justification process to say, well, the authors, that’s how they feel, that’s how we’ll accept it. But it was a challenge for them to accept narrative like that nowadays, no one would question that narrative, you know, is a part of the truth.

Prof. Alan Rosen (26:15):

So Pat, is that why they haven’t brought it out since 2014? <Laugh>? Oh, 

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (26:19):

No, no. 2014, 2010, we did a big publication, and all the books went within a few months. And so we did a reprint in 2014. And I’ve got a little cache, a private cache, which I send out now and again. But I think our work’s done there. I think the next books that come out should be a bit more specific. That was a general book on Indigenous mental health and wellbeing. It’s a wonderful textbook. It is, it, it’s, it is the Bible of the areas and it still touches me when people say that. So it was really useful. But I think now that there needs to be other textbooks led by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people about specific issues. And I’d use the same format too, working with our non-Indigenous allies, but they should be specialising in different areas, you know, the justice system or whatever.

(27:14):

So there’s a movement happening, a very positive one. And if you track back through time, the great changes that have happened. So things are advancing in some ways. I get worried when I do see those comments in an article if we do it in a mainstream newspaper, you know, and I think, oh gosh, there’s more racism around than I thought. But I think it’s always been there. It’s just coming out more. So I think that we, I hope that we won’t turn back the steps that we’ve taken into the future, but climate change remains a frightening reality for us. And this is what I’ll ask you, Alan and Stewart, you know, what are the points of the hope that you see in how we can deal with climate change and the role of Indigenous people in that? And for me, the point of hope was some of the activities that are already happening, I mentioned the rangers, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island Rangers program, very important.

(28:14):

And there’s a whole myriad of different advantages to that. But it’s also about keeping countries safe. And I also mentioned the rangers and cottage, you know I know that’s an outdated term, but small industries that both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people can participate in. Ecotourism, you know, being organic in your, I mean, I choose to buy the organic produce, and we had that conversation previously where we talked about range free eggs, you know, people are choosing before 10 years ago, they were rarity if they were there at all. But now people are conscious about, you know, the way we treat animals, animals’ rights, and the country. So we are choosing to purchase this power in what we buy. And I’d suggest for people that they do that. Be mindful of what you buy and how you consume, because you can direct a big industry to change and be more responsible, I think. So those are my points of hope for the future. And I think after we talk about points of hope to say, well, what can we do as individuals, you know, living in this society, seeing that there’s this terrible threat ahead of us, what can we do to change it? Because we’re not helpless. But what are your points of hope in the future Stewie?

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (29:38):

For hope? I think you write the Ranger program, the fact that these big disasters we’ve had in the last few years, we’ve come out the other side recognising the role of culture and how that can change the landscape. Not just the physical landscape, but the political, the other thing I think of is that at least in my lifetime, I see change regarding Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and our culture. And I think Australia is more open to it, and I think our allies are, are greater, not only in terms of their commitment to, but their understanding of how to work with us. And so I think that’s a really nice thing that we can see. It’s physical and, and it’s tangible and they’re an important aid for this relationship to move forward. I also think we’ve mentioned research and we’ve mentioned health professionals. I also think that that’s an industry of change.

(30:34):

We now can see how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander ways of looking at the health of ourselves and the things that connect us to the environment and each other are now becoming mainstream. And I think that’s a really important and positive thing. And then I think things we can do, you know, it’s overwhelming the information we get, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s burdensome. You know, you, you think of what I can do and then somebody will say, oh, that’s not enough. Well, every little bit helps. Doesn’t matter how little every little bit helps. So, you know, if all I can do is recycle what I can, then that’s what I can do and that’s what I should be able to do. If I’m able to, because I’ve, I can afford it, then I should look into more expensive ways of, you know, I’m currently in, in looking at how to move into an electric vehicle.

(31:29):

But I understand that not everyone is in that position to do that. But I think with the more we have and the more affluent we are, then we can afford to get into different things. But my message is that anyone can do something. And I’m very bad at this, so I shouldn’t actually preach it. But <laugh>, take your reusable bag to the supermarket. Don’t pick up the single use plastic bags. You know, that took me a long time to get into the habit of going to the supermarket and getting something. So, so yeah, my message is, you know, I think there’s hope. I, well, no, I don’t think I know that Australia’s moving. We’re in a better place. And that doesn’t matter how little your contribution is to climate change, something’s better than nothing. 

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (32:10):

Absolutely. Thank you. Alan, what are the points of hope ahead of us and what can people do?

Prof. Alan Rosen (32:16):

Well, we started thinking in terms of green shoots of hope. And we’ve generally found them in a lot of things that are happening that are tough that we can see that they result in a change, like getting the fire ranges or the, the fire management Aboriginal fire management entrenched in all our state systems, et cetera. And that’s progressively happening. These are great things and, and they all go well for our future. So rather than thinking of, I, I know it is a terrible threat, climate change, and it is frighten, it’s a frightening reality to many, and particularly to young people, but to all generations. But, and some people get frozen with fear. And I think the first thing is not to get frozen with fear, but to get active, get involved with other people who are wanting to do, as Stewart says, any little thing, anything towards it, just that everybody can do something, even if they’re just thinking about it together and thinking about what are the constructive things you can do about it.

(33:15):

And that helps with that eco anxiety, and it helps with this. So nostalgia we were talking about, it builds up, you know, solidarity in your community. And I would like to operationalise for everybody in the community the, the title of the textbook, Pat, that you are the head of, and that’s called “Working Together”. We need to be working together across Australia and to be inclusive of Aboriginal communities because they have a lot of the important clues and roots to a solution. And I would include in that having Aboriginal mental health workers who are specifically trained and mentored and guided by graduates of that program. And they are already spreading out, but there’s only, I think there’s only two tertiary institutions, two universities that run them. I think it’s just Charles Sturt and I think Edith Cowan now in, in West Australia. They didn’t get that program going.

(34:10):

Stewart’s shaking his head. They were supposed to be getting that going. They, I think they, in that case just still send their people over there in blocks. But those programs need to grow. And also that issue of just having social movements, there is now evidence behind social movements as a dissemination means in mental health. And we included a chapter in that, in a book we edited on early intervention of nearly everything, including all age groups. And that’s another thing that although it’s young people that we worry about most, who, who despair over whether they’re gonna have a world to live in, there’s a, there was a study of 10,000 young people and 57% didn’t think they’d have a world to live in in the future. And these things can only be overcome with people seeing that there is constructive action that’s gonna make a difference with this. And, and there is company in working on this.

(35:04):

So I think they’re important issues. And so it’s not just the young people, it’s for all ages. I think that people need to get active with this. The last issue I’d like to raise is about how transgenerational trauma, which undoubtedly underlies a lot of what’s been happening since colonisation. And it’s indelible, it’s very hard to remove. And the studies in over your way, Pat, with the Telethon Institute of Child Health Research have shown that it shows up in further generations down the line. So we need people to work across generations, and it’s gonna need many generations of work, but it needs to also provide hope.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (35:48):

Well, there is too, I think in this day, the anniversary of the apology, I’d like to just mention our national Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Healing Foundation and the good work that they do, because certainly I think a way forward for our people is that there needs to be an opportunity to heal and recover, to reclaim culture and to reclaim autonomy. And, you know, as we’ve been having these conversations, there’s so many other projects and programs that we could have mentioned, we could have highlighted. Most of them are fantastic. You know, there’s so many situations that are awful that we could have spoken about as well. And one thing that we did deliberate amongst ourselves is that what we’d like to do is for listeners, if you do have a big comment or a big question, please send that in. You’ll be given the address or the email contact to send a question in, and we’ll certainly come together and answer them individually or in another podcast.

(36:54):

So listeners, if you are thinking, oh, they didn’t mention this great program that I know of, consider sending that to us. So you will be given the contact address after this podcast. But I’m going to end the session now. I think it’s been a brilliant experience for me. Thanks for joining us on this fourth and final episode of MHPN Presents, A Conversation About, you’ve been listening to me, Pat Dungeon and Stewart Sutherland and Alan Rosen. We hope this and our other conversations have been engaging and interesting to you. Our listeners today, we’ve discussed the need for public health solutions to the climate crisis that are co-designed in partnership with Aboriginal people. Over the four episodes, we have vast a lot of territory. If you haven’t already, please listen to them by searching MHPN Presents on your ideal, preferred podcast streaming platform.

(37:57):

In closing, I’d like to throw a challenge to myself, Alan, and Stewart, and to our listener. If you have any questions for us or comments you’d like to share with us on the landing page, you’ll find a link to a feedback survey, follow the link and submit your comment and or question. If we get enough questions, MHPN will invite us back to record another episode where we respond to your queries. If you want to learn more about Stewart, Alan or myself, or if you want to access the resources we’ve referred to, please go to the landing page for this episode and follow the hyperlink. Finally, thank you for your commitment to, and engagement with interdisciplinary, person-centered mental health care. Goodbye from me, Alan.

Prof. Alan Rosen (38:48):

Oh, I’m still tussling with Can You Have Fun with climate change? We have enjoyed doing this together, but I think what we’re also trying to think about is, is how important it is not to despair and how to instill hope in ourselves as well as others. And particularly in, in where, where there’s disadvantage and there’s a colonial history. So let’s hope that we can, you know, proceed from here with hope.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (39:20):

Thank you, Alan. Stewie.

Dr. Stewart Sutherland (39:22):

Thank you, Pat. Thank you Alan. Bye from me for now. I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed yarning to Alan and Pat. And Alan, you’re right. I think there’s a lot of darkness in our world, and, but it’s all about hope and what we can do. So thank you all.

Prof. Pat Dudgeon (39:38):

Thank you.

Host (39:41):

Visit mhpn.org.au to find out more about our online professional program, including podcasts, webinars, as well as our face-to-face interdisciplinary mental health networks across Australia.