Creative Arts Therapies – Episode 3 – Clients and Settings

Disclaimer: The following transcript has been autogenerated and may contain occasional errors or inaccuracies resulting from the automated transcription process.

Host (00:01):

Hi there. Welcome to Mental Health Professionals Network podcast series MHPN’s aim is to promote and celebrate interdisciplinary collaborative mental health care.

Mark Creamer (00:18):

Hello, and welcome to this third episode in our mental health and focus series on creative arts therapy. My name’s Mark, Mark Creamer. I’m a clinical psychologist and a professorial fellow in Department of Psychiatry at the University of Melbourne. And this series is a partnership between MHPN and ANZACATA, which is the Australian New Zealand and Asian Creative Arts Therapies Association. And in this series we’re exploring creative arts therapy with the idea of, I guess, learning more about this very interesting approach. And I have to say that over the last couple of episodes, I’ve already learned heaps about it. And I hope that by the end of the series we’ll all be in a better position to really understand what creative arts therapy is and how it can help. We’ll be better informed about how we might refer a client or a patient to a creative arts therapist, and how we might work alongside creative arts therapists as part of a treatment team.

(01:15):

In our first episode, we looked at the empirical research underpinning creative arts therapy, and I was impressed by the quality and the quantity of the evidence base. And in our second episode, we discussed the history of creative arts therapy and we looked at the core competencies that all arts therapists should have. And they’re both tremendous episodes, so if you haven’t listened to them, I strongly recommend that you do. And in this episode, I’m going to be chatting with my guests about the different populations and cohorts and presenting problems that creative arts therapists work with. We’ll also talk about the different settings in which they work, and we’ll look at how creative arts therapists can collaborate with other health professionals and help me explore these issues. I am thrilled to be joined in the studio for this episode by Kirsty Greene. Welcome, Kirsty.

Kirsty Greene (02:05):

Hi Mark. Thanks for having me.

Mark Creamer (02:07):

And Tilly Dawson, welcome, Tilly,

Tilly Dawson (02:09):

Same Mark. Thank you for having us today.

Mark Creamer (02:11):

Great pleasure, and thanks for joining us. Before we get stuck into the content of our episode today, I would wonder if you could each tell us a little bit about yourselves, just a couple of sentences and your bios are up on the website, so if the listener would like to read more and I think they should, you can go and look in detail. But for the purpose of today, perhaps just a couple of sentences, Kirsty?

Kirsty Greene (02:32):

Yeah, sure. I’m an art therapist with a background in nursing and somatic movement facilitation. I’ve been working in the adult mental health space in a inpatient unit. I’m also running a private practise and on top of that, running some sessions for art therapists to get together and focus on their wellbeing.

Mark Creamer (02:53):

Wonderful. I’m looking forward to picking up a number of those things. And I also think that you’ve got an interesting job coming up actually.

Kirsty Greene (02:59):

Yeah, true, true.

Mark Creamer (03:00):

We might ask you about as well, I’m not sure yet.

Kirsty Greene (03:01):

Yeah, sure.

Mark Creamer (03:02):

We’ll see how we go. Thank you very much, Kirsty. Tilly?

Tilly Dawson (03:05):

So Mark, I’m a professional art therapist who have spent a lot of my time in the cancer care space. I came to art therapy through a merge of my interest in and studies in psychology and then working in design and then found myself studying the master of art therapy and came to CancerCare. And so I’ve been working with children and their families and more recently adults in the cancer space and have dabbled in some supervision teaching via La Trobe.

Mark Creamer (03:35):

And I’m thrilled at the diversity of the experiences that you have. Really what today is all about is exploring the range of places in which art therapy fits. So that’s really good. And in fact, let’s go on and start talking about that if we could, thinking about the different client groups or presenting problems and so on that creative arts therapists work with. And I have to admit and say that my only direct clinical experience of art therapists is with adult mental health patients. And we can certainly talk about those. And of course Kirsty has experience there, but I’m learning rapidly that there is a very wide range of settings in which arts therapists work, not just mental health. And perhaps if I could go to you, Tilly, I’m fascinated that you work primarily with cancer patients.

Tilly Dawson (04:19):

Absolutely. I think what drew me to working with cancer patients is I always saw myself as working in mental health and then when I got a taste of working in cancer care, I was like, oh, this is bringing my mental health understanding into a physical and medical lens. And cancer care and art therapy is really interesting because we are able to work with our clients for a huge amount of time. I’ve had clients for upwards of six years as they go on their medical journey. And something I’ve always been deeply interested in is the lifespan. So in my current two roles, I’m able to work with people from two years old up to 95 years old. So that’s deeply interesting to me.

Mark Creamer (05:01):

Absolutely, absolutely. And I want to come back to that lifespan issue. But yeah, that’s a fascinating point that I hadn’t thought of. The idea that you could work with the same person over a really extended period and I suppose watch them on their journey or work with them on their journey through whatever it is in this case, potentially life-threatening illness. Kirsty, you’ve worked, as you said in mental health and I think in addiction services. Do you want to tell us a little bit about those kinds of experiences?

Kirsty Greene (05:25):

Yeah, sure. So on the other end of the scale, I work with people in quite short-term circumstances. So it’s people who are having a moment of crisis that come into the facility and we offer art therapy in the group programme. So it’s something to get involved in to distract yourself as well as if you have the capacity in that moment to go a little deeper, but because it’s quite short term, it’s pretty light. We don’t do a lot of the long-term work that Tilly’s talking about. We also offer individual sessions if you’re looking to go a bit deeper. And then from there we often refer people onwards and suggest they continue their work with people outside of the facility when they’ve finished their time.

Mark Creamer (06:08):

I think it’s an interesting and important point, and I suppose it probably applies to any kind of psychotherapy really. You have to make some assessment about how long you’ve got this person for and that will dictate how you go –

Kirsty Greene (06:18):

And the safety of the moment, I think as well, it depends where the person’s at, but I wanted to highlight that I think art therapy can address emotional, physical and mental issues that people are having. So when you’re asking about where art therapy can land, yes, there’s the physical side, there’s the emotional, there’s the mental side, but it’s also the whole lifespan. I’ve just recently met someone who’s working with babies, so zero to five years old and working with that dyad of the parent and the baby using art therapy in that space. That’s something I hadn’t actually thought of until recently.

Mark Creamer (06:50):

I mean you were saying Tilly, that you work across the lifespan. So I am assuming that you work in somewhat different ways if you’re working with a very young child versus perhaps someone towards the end of life, you work in palliative care as well, or have done.

Tilly Dawson (07:03):

Absolutely. So in one of my roles, Peter Macallum Cancer Centre, I work often with people in the palliative care ward and at that stage, and that is a time period that is a little more single session approach and it’s very targeted and there’s a lot of things that are spoken and unspoken in that space about the use of art and art therapy and is often a great experience for someone to create an artwork or an object that really reflects back their experiences of life to then go on to be a piece of legacy for that person that their family can keep after their time. So it’s a very privileged position to be able to sit in and work with people in that space. And I feel very honoured to be able to do that as a part of my day to day. But I often say that I’m often a bit like a chair in those spaces and I’m there to silently witness people and hear their stories. And it’s so beautiful to be able to facilitate those moments. And I’m just so curious about other people’s lives and how they’ve lived in the wisdom that we all share.

Mark Creamer (08:09):

Quite, and as a society. We’re probably not terribly good at that, are we? So I’m glad you do and I’m interested now, one of the things that’s gradually sinking in for me is the importance of process in art therapy more so perhaps than the end product, that it’s the process, but that perhaps the end product can also have value when it is something that they can be proud of or that they can leave, as you say, as a legacy for family. It’s a very interesting idea, and I’m sure at the other end of the spectrum for very young children actually to create something they can, whatever it is, take home, put on the fridge is –

Tilly Dawson (08:40):

Absolutely. And we work in very clinical environments. I don’t know how often you both have been attending hospitals, but they’re very clean spaces and a part of that initial adjustment and coping to the hospital space is to be like, let’s make a little mess. Let’s put your mark on this space and experiment and take back some of that choice and control in a situation where they have very little in that space.

Kirsty Greene (09:05):

I was about to say, yeah, the space as well in the mental health facilities is a spot where you can come in and you are in control. You are making the choices. Nobody’s telling you how and what to do other than to be safe and kind to others. And the freedom is yours. The choice in material, how you want to make what you want to do with that at the end, you can tear it up and pop it in the bin, you can take it home.

Mark Creamer (09:26):

It’s an interesting thought in a setting where they probably have little control over most other things. So yeah, very interesting idea. Talking about the age range and different populations and moving to adolescents. I understand. Kirsty, am I right in saying that you are about to embark on a very exciting project looking in a forensic setting?

Kirsty Greene (09:42):

Yeah, yeah. There’s a new programme starting at the forensic Youth Justice Precinct. So that’s going to be a new art therapy programme. It’s going to be long-term work, which I’m really excited about because I haven’t had that opportunity. And it’s also a chance, I guess for the youth that are at the moment contained to have an opportunity to express themselves and do some art therapy work.

Mark Creamer (10:04):

I think that’d be wonderful experience. I look forward to inviting you back in a couple of years and we’ll see how it went.

Kirsty Greene (10:09):

Yeah, let’s see how we go.

Mark Creamer (10:10):

So it does kind of seem that, almost that no population is off the table, that they’re all possibilities. We haven’t mentioned things like neurodiverse populations and dementia, and do you think there’s any population in the field has yet to crack that we should be doing work with this group or that group?

Kirsty Greene (10:27):

I think if you brought any group to the table, you would find someone is either volunteering or is employed. I think it’s more that the jobs are not necessarily in the spaces, but I think you’ll find someone championing art therapy or creative therapy in any space.

Mark Creamer (10:41):

Do you think that given that we’ve got this big range of settings, do people tend to specialise in a population and so on? Yeah, they do. That’s heads nodding here.

Tilly Dawson (10:50):

Lots of heads nodding. And I think also age range as well. I think you’ll find across the art therapy population, there’s people who specialise in adults or children or adolescents as well. So we do sit in these kind of defined pockets.

Kirsty Greene (11:03):

I think as well, I fell into mental health because of my nursing background. I was actually trying to get away from hospitals moving into art therapy, but here I am and I felt myself yearning to work with younger people. So I’m now able to move into that space and specialise in that space and really expand my knowledge because I think in every age range and specific population, there’s so much to know to be able to work with people.

Mark Creamer (11:28):

I think you’re right, absolutely right. And I must say one of my hates about our profession of mental health and clinical psychology generally, that there are a few people who say I’m an expert in everything, and you look at their website and they’ll treat every disorder under the sun. You think you can’t possibly know all of that about everything

Kirsty Greene (11:43):

One thing I find, or what I try to do is I try to follow what I’m excited about and I encourage other people, whatever you’re excited about, go down that path. That’s what you’re going to want to learn about. That’s what you’re going to want to think about all day. You want to listen to podcasts, read books, meet people, connect.

Tilly Dawson (11:59):

I absolutely second that in saying also that is what will sustain you in your career as well because these are very tricky situations that we’re viewing in our work sometimes. So having that joy and that passion will sustain us in long thriving careers, I hope.

Mark Creamer (12:16):

Exactly. And it’s probably true for any job, isn’t it?

Kirsty Greene (12:19):

Absolutely. If you want to get out of bed, enjoy.

Mark Creamer (12:21):

Exactly. Get out of bed. Before we leave the populations, I just want to quickly pick up Kirsty with you, the idea that we might be able to use art therapy or creative arts therapy as a self-care idea and perhaps looking after ourselves or our peers.

Kirsty Greene (12:34):

Well, I mean art making can be therapeutic. Sitting down and creating an artwork can be therapeutic for everybody. The spaces that I’m creating is that opportunity for art therapists to come together and do that together because I find that once we finish uni, we get launched out into the ocean and it’s “good luck” and you really need to do the work to maintain your community and stay in touch with people. So what I’ve found is I’ve combined my love of movement and art making and created these spaces where people can come together and practise some yoga and then make art together and chat and talk about what we do, how we’re doing it, the challenges that we face, what’s working, what’s not working, and make those connections, which actually it’s not just for art therapists, it’s for a range of occupations that are working in those spaces.

Mark Creamer (13:20):

Exactly. I was thrilled that you used the word Tilly, used the word supervision before. Anytime I hear that, I think thank goodness. We’re talking about monitoring work and whether it’s peer supervision or individual supervision, and as you say, it’s also about peer support and looking after ourselves within our group, let’s lead on and look at the different settings, the different locations in which we might work. And obviously independent private practise is presumably common for many creative arts therapists. And I know at the moment, as you started off by saying, Kirsty, you have a private practise. Is private practise a viable option for arts therapists nowadays?

Kirsty Greene (13:56):

It’s definitely a viable option. It’s terribly scary and I do always feel quite nervous when people graduate and then go straight into private practise. And I know that that’s sometimes the only option. But what I’ve found is that comparing the two, working in a mental health facility where I have the whole team wrapped around people to support these people, it’s not just my responsibility. And when you are running a private practise, you do need to know who to call and when to call and when to make those calls. And there’s that potential to disrupt the therapeutic relationship depending on those sorts of calls that you decide to make. It’s a lot to run a private practise alongside of keeping books and maintaining appointments and quite the finance side.

Mark Creamer (14:39):

Yeah, couldn’t agree more. And in fact, I was just about to lead on to that point about the sort of pros and cons versus working as part of a team. Do you want to add anything there?

Tilly Dawson (14:47):

I was going to say, we often talk about how many hats we have to hold when becoming an art therapist. And yes, private practise comes with the marketing hat, the finance hat, the accounting hat, and yeah, it is very complex, but is also why I’ve embedded myself so strongly in multidisciplinary teams because that is where I get the diversity of those positions to bounce off.

Mark Creamer (15:09):

And you alluded Kirsty there to another of my pet things. I have a lot of them really, I’m getting old, so I’m allowed to now, which is about someone finishing their training and straight off into private practise where they may never talk to another professional, really doing their own thing. I know sometimes people have to do that for various reasons, but ideally the opportunity to work with teams and learn off other people and so on, at least for a few years to give you the background. I think that’s crucial. And as you’re implying, develop referral networks and feeling comfortable about referring, because I think often we are not very good at saying, actually this is out of my depth. I better refer on. So let’s just quickly go back to the idea of private practise funding wise. I suppose some people are paying out their pockets. So do we have NDIS funding?

Kirsty Greene (15:53):

Yeah, there’s NDIS funding for private practise depending on the people.

Tilly Dawson (15:56):

Absolutely. And in some instances related to hospital work, certain charities will fund sessions without therapists after the hospitalisation treatment as well. So there’s a few different avenues for funding private practise and ongoing care.

Mark Creamer (16:13):

Okay, good. And that’s important I think for some of our listeners who may want to refer to know that there are actually ways of funding the treatment if we can. So again, talking about there doesn’t seem to be any population or presenting problem that’s completely off limits and it seems almost like there’s no location either. There’s a range of inpatient settings, outpatient settings, forensic aged care, whatever. Are there any settings that you think, gosh, we’d like to be in there?

Kirsty Greene (16:38):

I was going to say again, I don’t think so. I know people who are running nature focused art therapy, so out in the bush walking art therapy, like I said, people working with babies, people working with refugee populations, like I said, physical, mental and emotional. I feel like art therapists are everywhere and because it’s been around for a long, long time –

Mark Creamer (16:58):

I heard the other day that Victoria leads the world almost in having art therapists in schools. Is that right? Do you know anything about that?

Tilly Dawson (17:06):

I don’t work in that area particularly, but I know that yes, we’ve had some success in the school menu funding programme, which I think is Victoria specific. So I know of a lot of art therapists going into schools to kind of support children in their natural environment of where they’re spending most of their time to interact around their school classroom and help them regulate in the space. So I have only heard of it in Victoria, but it sounds like it’s been a fabulous initiative and a great use of our skillset.

Mark Creamer (17:34):

I think it is, well, potentially, potentially,

Tilly Dawson (17:36):

Potentially.

Mark Creamer (17:37):

I’m really interested in the idea of prevention. In our next episode we’re going to talk about future directions and I want to talk a little bit about prevention, but that seems the kind of environment where we might be able to give young people skills that will set them up.

Kirsty Greene (17:52):

I think psychoeducation and emotional regulation, like Tilly said, they’re the key focuses of what I’m going to be doing in my work working with adolescent and youth. So I dunno about the school population either. I do have a friend working in a special school, so I know that that’s an option. And when I was doing my placement, I was part of the wellbeing team.

Tilly Dawson (18:11):

And I think so important that this part of life, particularly post covid, we’ve had a lot of people who with school refusal that we’re seeing through hospital at the moment. And I can see such a great role for art. There are some kind of helping children go back to school and engage it in a positive environment.

Mark Creamer (18:30):

I want to go on in a minute and talk about the pros and cons of working in a team. And we’ve already alluded some of the advantages, but before we do that, perhaps Tilly, can I ask you, in your experience, do you think that creative arts therapists generally fit in to a team? Is it a kind of natural fit in a treatment team?

Tilly Dawson (18:48):

I think I’ve been very lucky that I’ve come into a role particularly at the Children’s where there had been quite an extensive history of art therapy in the team. I think often in the beginning there’s some strange looks like who is this art witch? Will she work in this allied health department? But I think we as clinicians have worked so hard to be taken seriously and be woven into the fabric of our teams that we work in and through kind of education of what our role is and also providing that supervision support to other clinicians have been able to sit at the table and been taken seriously in those spaces and really been celebrated as allied health clinicians.

Kirsty Greene (19:31):

I just wanted to add to that, I’ve actually found us to be the carers of the space. We end up being the carers of the team. We’ve been running staff wellbeing workshops and reflective art making workshops for the team, and you tend to be the person that people go to. That’s at least been my experience as the art therapist in this space. As for being taken seriously. I’ve found that over the years our work is really appreciated, especially when we can present it. I think we have something tangible to –

Mark Creamer (19:58):

Absolutely. And you alluded to this Tilly, but the idea of educating the other professions about what you have to offer, and I do think probably still, but certainly were all sorts of misconceptions about art therapy and what it is and so on.

Kirsty Greene (20:11):

It’s still the art group.

Mark Creamer (20:13):

Yeah, exactly.

Tilly Dawson (20:14):

Or that trolley lady.

Kirsty Greene (20:17):

And you always get a student chucked in the mix and you’re like, oh, hang on, do they know anything about art therapy?

Mark Creamer (20:23):

Which is why I was really pleased to start this series with an episode on the research evidence and the empirical and the commitment that the field has to ensuring that what they’re doing is actually, I think it’s really important.

Kirsty Greene (20:36):

It’s a rigorous training and we’re required to do a number of supervision hours throughout to maintain our accreditation.

Mark Creamer (20:44):

We talked about that in the last episode actually, and I was surprised and impressed by the rigour of the training really. And again, I think that’s very important in terms of the way in which the profession is perceived, isn’t it?

Tilly Dawson (20:55):

And I think I was just having a thought often in particularly when working with children, we become to really know that child intimately from that long amount of engagement and understand their particular voice. And so actually now I’m finding more on the regular that I’m invited to go to ethics consults to present that child and their inherent voice as the expert. And so this is a key part of what we can offer in those kind of multidisciplinary spaces because we are the holder of that information and representation of the child and their voice and their experiences.

Mark Creamer (21:31):

I quite agree. And you’ve kind of stolen my last question actually, but okay. Not to worry. We’re flexible. I was going to ask whether we think that creative arts therapists are becoming more accepted, and it does sound as though really what you’re saying is yes, they are increasingly recognised.

Kirsty Greene (21:46):

Yeah, I was going to say within the field, but even right down to a few years ago when I said I was an art therapist, I had to explain what that meant. And now I say I am an art therapist, and people say, oh, cool. I think it’s just in the mainstream. People understand what it is. It has a presence. Like I said, there’s a lot more job opportunities coming up in unique spaces and in our fields. I feel like we’re being taken pretty seriously now. I mean we’ve got a podcast on it, so here we are chatting about it.

Mark Creamer (22:14):

Exactly. That’s exactly right. Yes. Once you’ve made it onto an MHPN podcast-

Tilly Dawson (22:21):

We are the professionals.

Mark Creamer (22:23):

Exactly. That’s right. That’s right. So yes, I was going to talk about the challenges of possibly working in a multidisciplinary team and those issues about understanding what it is you’re there for and respect for the work that you do. I can imagine, as we’ve said, are sometimes a challenge. I wonder also sometimes where we’re working in an environment of constant resource restraints, there’s never enough money to go round, whether sometimes art therapy is seen as obviously something we can do without. Is that a challenge, do you think?

Tilly Dawson (22:50):

I think we’re still there. Yeah. We’ve been made quite permanent a fixture. So I kind of think going back to your point about how we’re often seen as the carers of the team and understanding our role in supporting the greater organism of the team. So we have stayed pretty at the forefront I think.

Kirsty Greene (23:11):

Yeah, and I was going to say in the group programme, in the facility that I work, art therapy is the backbone. I think music and art therapy is the backbone. We are consistent. We’re there, we’re showing up probably once or twice a day for people to be able to engage with. And so I think maybe they might cut down on the funding for our actual materials, but we’re creative so we can come up with anything to work within art therapy. We can use the rubbish if we need to, but no, I don’t. I think it’s actually the opposite. I think just given the fact that I have a new role and a new programme starting, there’s funding being put into these spaces for creative arts.

Mark Creamer (23:46):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I like your comment about the fact that you are increasingly seen as someone who can play a part in looking after the team as well. That’s an interesting role.

Kirsty Greene (23:56):

Yeah. Yeah. And just thinking about your question about multidisciplinary teams, the groups that I run, I often collaborate with other team members. So I’ll be running groups with OT, social work, music therapists, and my favourite is with lived experience. We will either create a group together based on our experiences together, or I’ll run an art therapy group and invite people to come along. And it’s a chance for people to also engage with the team in a more relaxed space that’s not necessarily task-based.

Mark Creamer (24:23):

Exactly. I was going to talk about the advantages for you of working within a team. And clearly that’s one, the opportunity to work alongside people in actually delivering whatever it is we’re going to deliver, I think is a great big plus.

Tilly Dawson (24:37):

Absolutely. I run a longstanding group with a music therapist, and we’re currently developing a bit of a model of about how our two disciplines work to kind of hold the space and are able to really allow greater access and depth of experience in the session by our two separate modalities, collaborating and co-facilitating the power of modelling in that space. And collaboration, particularly in the health space is one of my favourite things because it’s just we get to learn about the person from another angle. I love that if I’m witnessing something in a session and I go, this is some interesting behaviour, I can walk over to my neuropsych colleague and they’ll show me their brain and where the tumour is sitting and how that’s impacting this behaviour. And we can have that really interesting chat so then I can think differently about how to approach the session next time.

Mark Creamer (25:30):

That’s a very nice example, very nice example. And the reality is that we are working usually with very complex cases. I mean human beings anyway are complex, aren’t they? But to have these different perspectives and to create a picture that’s more rounded I think is really useful. Look, that’s a very optimistic and positive note to end on, so I think we should probably wind it up. It’s been a fantastic discussion that I must say, and I’ve feel that I’m much better informed now about the breadth of the work that creative arts therapists do, and I do feel more confident about being able to refer someone appropriately to an arts therapist and indeed working with an arts therapist as part of a multidisciplinary team. So thank you very much indeed for your time today, Tilly and Kirsty. And if our listeners would like to find out more about Kirsty, Tilly or even me, or if you want to find out more about creative arts therapy and get access to a range of resources, go to the landing page for the episode.

(26:24):

You’ll also find a short feedback survey. And please if you can spare the time to fill it in, it’s really important for us to know how you found this episode, and also to offer suggestions about how we might better meet your future needs. Look out for the final episode in this series. It will be released in a fortnight on Mental Health In Focus, and in that episode we’ll be having a broad ranging chat about innovations and future directions in creative arts therapy. So I’m really looking forward to that one. But for now, it’s goodbye and thank you very much indeed to you, Kirsty.

Kirsty Greene (26:58):

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Mark Creamer (27:00):

And also goodbye and thanks very much to you, Tilly.

Tilly Dawson (27:02):

Thank you so much, Mark, it’s been great to be here.

Mark Creamer (27:05):

Been wonderful having you. Thank you so much to both of you for your time and to all our listeners, I do hope that you enjoyed this episode as much as we have, and I hope that you will join us again for our final episode in this series on creative arts therapy. But until then, thanks again to everybody. Bye for now.

Host (27:23):

Visit mhpn.org.au to find out more about our online professional programme, including podcasts, webinars, as well as our face-to-face interdisciplinary mental health networks across Australia.